153: How to Become a Data Analyst w/o Applying 1000 Jobs (ft. Steve Dalton)

Steve Dalton: 00:00:00

But you have an interview with every company you've ever wanted.

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And the round one interview is this

find somebody in your job of choice at

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that company and have them recommend

you to another person at that company.

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That's it.

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Avery Smith: This is Steve Dalton and

Steve is the author of the two hour

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job search, and he's been helping

people find jobs for the last 20 years.

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And in today's episode, he'll

explain his rather radical

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philosophy on how to land a job.

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Without even applying online.

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So if you're sitting here and you're

listening and you're like, man, I feel

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like applying online is pointless.

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Steve Lokey kind of agrees with you.

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Steve Dalton: There is no way to

systematically beat online job postings.

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Avery Smith: Okay.

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Okay.

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But what should you do instead?

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Steve Dalton: The data supports

networking is a better approach.

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Networked referrals are 12

times more likely to get a job

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than an online job applicant.

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It makes sense to go after

the 12x versus the 1x.

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Avery Smith: In this episode,

Steve and I will teach you exactly.

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How you can ditch the black hole of

applying online and instead network your

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way into landing your first data job.

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So let's go ahead and

get into this episode.

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So Steve, you are the author of

the two hour job search and the

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job closer, both of which were

published by Penguin Random House.

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So that's, that's a big deal.

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You're kind of one of the only people

who has like, like a go to thought leader

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in the industry for, for finding a job.

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Can you just give us like a big picture

of like what your philosophy is?

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And, you know, what you'd kind of

do if you needed to find a job.

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Steve Dalton: Absolutely.

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I think there is no shortage

of tips on job searching.

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What I do is not tips.

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I do instructions.

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I was a former chemical engineer,

so I like process, but it was really

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the 08 financial crisis when I

realized people were overwhelmed.

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They were losing their

jobs, getting laid off.

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When you're stressed and concerned

about your welfare, you don't have

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the ability to curate tips into a

usable format, but you do have the

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ability to follow instructions.

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If you want someone to bake you a

cake, you don't hand them a list of

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ingredients, you hand them a recipe.

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And I figured that made more sense for job

searching than just giving people tips and

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telling them to figure it out themselves.

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Avery Smith: That makes a lot of

sense because B, when you're looking

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for a job, you're usually like very

stressed and almost frantic, right?

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It's, you're not really

thinking coherently, and so

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it makes a lot more sense.

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Okay, like this is step one,

this is step two, this is step

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three, so on and so forth.

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So I like that.

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It makes a lot of sense.

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Uh, what, what are those steps then?

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Steve Dalton: Really, first step above

all else is find a set of instructions

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that you trust and, and stick to it.

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I mean, that is the key.

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That is the answer to almost every

problem you will face in your life.

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Like, find somebody who solved

it before, ask them how they

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did it, follow that template.

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But largely, when it comes specifically

to job searching, the first step is

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basically, before we spend dozens of hours

looking, let's spend one hour deciding

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where to even look in the first place.

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That involves something

called the LAMP list.

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Let's take the universe of all

possible employers, put them into

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a logical subset, according to our

tastes, and then put them into a

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logical order of attack based on most

promising odds to least promising odds.

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Second step is once we've got our top

targets identified, how do we reach out?

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to people at those organizations

most effectively to get them to

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agree to interact with us in real

time so that we might be able

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to convert them into a mentor.

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Then step three is what do you say to

a person to convert a total stranger

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into a potential mentor in a 30

minute conversation that really the

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whole two hour job search process

is born out of the realization that

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there is no data that supports that

online job postings are beatable that

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customizing your resume in any way.

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Increases your odds of

getting an interview.

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There's literally no data that

demonstrates that, which is deeply

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troubling because people have very

strong feelings on how important it is.

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But there's no expected, like.

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return on your investment, in my

opinion, that's deeply troubling.

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So if there is no way to systematically

beat online job postings, that leaves

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networking as your best result.

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The data supports networking

as a better approach.

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Networked referrals are 12

times more likely to get a job

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than an online job applicant.

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So it makes sense to go

after the 12x versus the 1x.

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Avery Smith: I tried to

experiment with this.

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And so I posted a job on LinkedIn.

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I made it very clear, no one

should apply to this job.

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I said, don't apply to this job.

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This is just a test.

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This is only a test, a closed test.

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I wanted to test with some of my

accelerator students to see like which

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one of them would rank the highest.

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Well, I got about 550 applications

in about 24 hours before

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LinkedIn shut down my experiment.

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Um, so first off that goes to show

that people, even, even when you see

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that there's like 500 applicants on

a job, like I can guarantee you that

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90 percent of those people didn't

read the job description because

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I said literally over and over and

over again, do not fuck this job.

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This is a test.

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But when I got the results,

it was really interesting.

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It made no sense to me.

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Like the, the top candidate through the

LinkedIn ATS was a terrible candidate.

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And for the longest time, I was

like, I was going to make a YouTube

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video about this and I still have it.

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Cause I was like, I can't

explain what happened here.

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Right?

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Like my accelerator students

weren't ranking that high

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in the LinkedIn algorithm.

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I was like, what the heck is going on?

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And then I talked to a recruiter

about it and they're like, yeah,

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the, the LinkedIn ATS is very bad.

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Like they hate it.

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So it's like, it's like, how are you

even supposed to, anyways, how are

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you supposed to play a game when like

there's no rules and it makes no sense.

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And anyways, it's, it's terribly

hard with, with all this being said,

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like the title of your book, the

two hour job search, is it possible?

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To land a job in like two hours?

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Steve Dalton: I imagine theoretically,

but the two hour job search that the two

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hours in the title does not refer to the

amount of time it takes you to find a job.

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Uh, it refers to the amount of

time that it takes to get as far

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as you can on your own before you

simply need the help of others.

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So put another way, if it were noon and my

boss were to tell me, Steve, you're fired.

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Start looking for a job right now.

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By 2 p.

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m.

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I'd have gotten as far as

I possibly could on my own.

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At that point, I simply need other

people to make any further progress.

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But in that two hours, I can set up a

completely strategic and science based job

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search that maximizes the efficiency of an

inherently inefficient subject, which is.

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Getting other people's help.

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But, and from that point forward, I

can give exact instructions for what

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to do if then it's a massive flowchart.

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There's exact instructions for it if you

follow the first two hours according to

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the recipe of the two hour job search.

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Uh, but a lot of people will, who aren't

familiar with the book, will say that

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you can get a job in two hours or that

you have to do two hours of work per day.

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And it's neither of those things.

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It's no more than a half an hour of work

in most days, and you have weekends off.

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Uh, it's meant to be very finite,

because usually if you're job searching,

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you have other responsibilities.

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Maybe a, a, another full time job.

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Maybe you're taking

care of family members.

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Maybe you're in school full time.

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Like, you just don't have two

hours a day to devote to this.

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Getting the most bang for your buck.

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That's really what the two hour job

search is about, and the two hours

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has to do with how long it takes you

to get set up to succeed in a, a, a,

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an advocacy based job search rather

than an online posting based one.

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Avery Smith: That's so cool, because

I feel like most people would look

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at job searching as like a very solo,

uh, and lonely activity, but you're

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saying, hey, two hours on your own,

and then you got to go be social

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in your job search, essentially.

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Steve Dalton: Yeah, it's, it's off your

shoulders, like, people will ignore you,

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it just happens, but in two hours, you

can get as far as you could possibly get.

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So there's, there's some feeling

of success there, just knowing,

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okay, I'm, I'm set up for success.

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I'm going to have to ride some

statistical waves in the future of

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people who choose not to respond to

me and some who do, or some who, uh,

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pretend to be helpful at first, but

then prove themselves not to be helpful.

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Like, but it only takes you two hours

to set yourself up for a much more

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long game focused and increasingly

Successful job search compared to

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that same amount of time spent online

applying to postings ad nauseum.

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Avery Smith: I think that is so

important because I actually did a poll

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on LinkedIn and I said, you know, how

do you, how do you search for jobs?

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And 80 percent of people said that,

you know, they, they browse job

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boards and they, they hit apply.

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And then I did a poll the next day and I

said, like, how'd you get your last job?

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And like 67 percent were either

like recruited or, or referred.

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And so it's like, okay, we're doing

like the reverse 80, 20 roll where

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we're spending 80 percent of our time on

something that doesn't even get, you know,

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that gets literally like what I guess a

little bit more 30 percent of the results.

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But what you're kind of saying is like

the whole applying online thing is broken.

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And like, There's not even really a good

chance that's going to lead you anywhere.

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And you're kind of saying

to ignore it, right?

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Steve Dalton: I use it

very, very judiciously.

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I did a LinkedIn post myself where I

asked readers to assume that online

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job postings interview rate was 0%.

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How would that change your search?

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And then as the conversation and

comments kind of built out, I started

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saying, well, it's pretty close to 0%.

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So why aren't we doing

those things already?

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Uh, because it's, it's kind of negligible.

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My deepest concern with online job

postings and, and, and advice that guides

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job seekers to investing in that more

effectively or more efficiently or, or

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with more volume is that you don't learn

anything from applying to jobs online.

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You don't get smarter.

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You are no better a candidate

tomorrow than you are today.

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If you, even if you spent eight hours

applying online today, but when you

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reach out to smart people in your field

of choice and ask them how they got

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so good at their jobs, you do become

a stronger candidate day to day.

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You develop a better understanding.

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You become more conversant in

topics you find interesting and

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would like to pursue a career in.

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So online job postings, there's

a time and a place for them.

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Namely, for your top targets, when

someone tells you you need to apply,

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or for your non top targets that

you're not networking with, go ahead

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and apply when you have downtime.

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Uh, but that's the big

benefit of having a LAMP list.

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It tells you, here is your benchmark,

here are your top six that you

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should be networking with because

they're that important to you.

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And outside the top six,

do whatever you want.

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It's, it's your spare time.

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You could apply to job your bottom

34 or you could go see a movie

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or have a meal with a loved one.

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Things that will more predictably provide

you a positive return on investment.

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Avery Smith: Interesting.

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So I like what you said where you're

like, you could apply for jobs online.

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You're not necessarily learning

anything, but if you're reaching out

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to people, first off, you're meeting

people, you're expanding your network.

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Second off, like you're going to

have a conversation with them.

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You're probably going to learn

maybe what they do at their job.

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You're going to maybe learn

how they got their job.

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And so you can kind of start

to get smarter in this process.

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Um, I can hear people in the YouTube

comments already, and you know, they're,

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they're saying, okay, that's great.

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But like when I reach out to

people, they don't respond.

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So it's like, that doesn't

feel very fruitful.

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Steve Dalton: No, uh, no, it doesn't at

all, but it's, it's rather unfortunate.

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We as a society are so used to

Equating success to something very

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close to 100 percent effectiveness.

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If you take a step back and you

look at something like a baseball

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player, the best baseball players

in the world get paid millions of

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dollars to only fail 70 percent of

the time that they go on offense.

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There aren't any good non sports

analogies like that people

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can really relate to though.

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Publishing, like academic

papers I've heard.

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Not everybody does that.

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Uh, I was a chemical

engineer, you were as well.

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Getting a 30 percent was an A on

most of our tests back in the day.

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Uh, so it felt great to get a 30%, but

most people don't see a success rate

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of 20 percent and think that's good.

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But it is absolutely good when you're

reaching out to strangers to ask them

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for the gift of their time and knowledge.

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If you're hearing back 20 or 30 percent

of the time, that's really good.

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You will have to kiss a lot of

frogs to find your prince or

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your princess in this process.

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But the prince or princesses that you find

are so dramatically worth the investment.

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You get smarter.

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You have more eyes and ears

looking out on your behalf.

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You have people empathizing with you.

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You have mentors directing

you on what to do next.

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So it's not all on your shoulders alone.

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There are just so many advantages

to that, that approach.

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Avery Smith: Uh, do you think that,

so I think the term that you use and

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I'm, I'm like, I'm a data career coach.

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I'm not really a, a formal career coach.

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And, uh, I'm, I'm halfway in between like

landing a job and teaching data analysis.

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So I think the, the, the, the term

that a lot of people use in your

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space is like, is it the interview

rate or the applicant rate?

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And that's like the total number

applications you send out before

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you get an interview, right.

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Or the percentage that you

get, is that the right term?

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Steve Dalton: I.

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Can see how that would be a term.

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Yes.

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Avery Smith: Okay.

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Steve Dalton: I don't support it.

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I think that is an outdated metric.

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I don't think there's any correlation

between the number of applications

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you submit and how successful

you are in your job search,

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Avery Smith: which is, well,

that's exactly what I was

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going to say is, is like.

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People, people rather just

apply online because they feel

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like it's more productive.

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But if you sent, let's say, let's say

every time you apply for a job, you

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cold apply for a job online, you send

also one of these like cold messages

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for an informational interview.

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Do you think the percentages would

be pretty comparable for like the

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number of times you hear back?

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Steve Dalton: No, I think you'll hear back

from strangers far more frequently than

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you'll hear back from online postings.

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I also did another post on LinkedIn

recently that challenged job

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seekers to imagine if applying

each online job application, you.

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Submitted cost you 1.

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How would your job search change?

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And then again, over the course of

the comments, people realized, Oh,

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wait, the cost is more like 20 or 50.

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If you factor in mental anguish,

effort, time, confidence, all the

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sort of ancillary costs that go

along with applying to jobs online.

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I think what keeps people away from

networking with strangers, and I think

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it's comforting to think nobody will

respond because that absolves you from

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any obligation to try it or to move.

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deeply invest in it.

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But I think what holds people back

from pursuing it with rigor is

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that they've never been taught.

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I think a lot of people feel some

embarrassment that they don't know

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how to do this networking thing.

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Everybody tells you to go network like

it's self evident, but nobody ever

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actually teaches you how to do it.

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And that's just cruel.

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I think that's a failing of

higher education to be honest.

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We It is a unique skill.

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I think if you ask a stranger on the

street, if they're good at networking

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people, this surprises me, people often

say, yeah, I'm good at networking.

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And I'm like, that doesn't match

what my students say in my office.

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Tell me more.

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And they'll say, well, never.

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I'm placed on a new team

at work or at school.

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I get along with my teammates

and some of them become friends.

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And I tell them, okay,

that's reactive networking,

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otherwise known as cooperation.

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: 00:13:44

We learn that naturally as

we age to survive proactive

306

: 00:13:48

networking is what I teach.

307

: 00:13:49

How do you reach out to a stranger

who's not expecting to hear from you

308

: 00:13:52

or have a relationship with you back?

309

: 00:13:53

That's a total unique skill set.

310

: 00:13:55

You would never blame an adult

who doesn't know how to swim if

311

: 00:13:57

they've never been trained to swim.

312

: 00:13:58

Or speak a foreign language

if they've never been trained

313

: 00:14:00

to speak a foreign language.

314

: 00:14:01

Why are we so quick to blame people who

don't know how to proactively network

315

: 00:14:05

when nobody has been trained for this?

316

: 00:14:07

The good news is it's a skill

you can learn and I have exact

317

: 00:14:09

instructions for how to do it.

318

: 00:14:11

Avery Smith: It's that's very fascinating.

319

: 00:14:12

Um, remind me, do you still

work at Duke or not anymore?

320

: 00:14:15

Steve Dalton: Not anymore.

321

: 00:14:15

After 17 wonderful years, I left in 2022.

322

: 00:14:19

Avery Smith: Okay, good.

323

: 00:14:19

That means I can, I can talk

about, uh, colleges a little

324

: 00:14:22

bit more, uh, freely here.

325

: 00:14:23

Um, my point here is, yeah,

you're a hundred percent right.

326

: 00:14:26

That if, if we, if we go back and we talk

about like, okay, most people are landing

327

: 00:14:30

their jobs for being recruited or referred

and we go to college to get a job.

328

: 00:14:34

Like, why is that such a, like ancillary?

329

: 00:14:37

If it even exists in college, right?

330

: 00:14:39

Like I went to the university of Utah,

there is career services there, but

331

: 00:14:43

like, I don't, I hardly ever went.

332

: 00:14:45

And maybe when I went, I didn't

really find it all that useful.

333

: 00:14:48

I do think if I went to Duke and I had,

you know, you as a career resource,

334

: 00:14:52

that would be really helpful, but it

is, it is silly to me that like, if

335

: 00:14:55

like networking is what gets you jobs.

336

: 00:14:57

Why do we ignore it so

much in higher education?

337

: 00:15:00

Steve Dalton: Considering how many

classes we are required to take as

338

: 00:15:04

core curriculum, I'm still stunned

that the ability to pay off our

339

: 00:15:07

debts and provide for our loved

ones is not one of those classes.

340

: 00:15:10

To me, this is a life skill.

341

: 00:15:12

I think it's, it's, It's just, it's

a moral and ethical failing on the

342

: 00:15:15

part of higher ed to not ensure

students graduate with these, with

343

: 00:15:20

that skill, knowing how much money

they've invested in the institution.

344

: 00:15:23

I feel like genuine frustration and

anger that it doesn't get more attention.

345

: 00:15:29

I think part of the reason

is that when you're a hammer,

346

: 00:15:31

everything looks like a nail.

347

: 00:15:32

Most universities are run by tenure

track faculty whose job searches are

348

: 00:15:36

nothing like their students job searches.

349

: 00:15:39

It's a whole parallel system, but they

don't have a lot of understanding for

350

: 00:15:43

how that process works when there's not

perfect infrastructure provided for you.

351

: 00:15:48

And a fleet of recruiters helping you

move from one organization to another.

352

: 00:15:52

So to me, it's, it's, uh, it's

a, it's a crisis of leadership.

353

: 00:15:55

I do think schools who get this

right faster will enjoy an advantage

354

: 00:15:59

in the marketplace, but we're

not where we need to be on this.

355

: 00:16:02

Avery Smith: If I was cynical, I would

say that, uh, colleges have no true

356

: 00:16:06

incentive to get you a job as they

just want you to go to more school

357

: 00:16:10

as, as a solution, but, but I don't

think that's actually how it is.

358

: 00:16:13

But Maybe.

359

: 00:16:14

I don't know.

360

: 00:16:14

Okay.

361

: 00:16:14

With, with that, uh, I would like to trade

my political science one on one for a

362

: 00:16:19

networking class taught by Steve Dalton,

but I think I'm a little bit too late.

363

: 00:16:23

Um, okay, let's, let's give them, and

I know in your books that you go into

364

: 00:16:26

like a masterclass of how to actually

do these, these reach outs and you

365

: 00:16:30

know what to say, but in short, like

if I have never sent a cold message

366

: 00:16:33

before in my life, if I've never done

like an informational interview, um,

367

: 00:16:37

if I've never, maybe I've never even

talked to a stranger before, like.

368

: 00:16:41

What do I do?

369

: 00:16:42

Steve Dalton: Most important thing you

can do first for this process is forget

370

: 00:16:47

you ever heard the phrase sell yourself.

371

: 00:16:49

Uh, it is so damaging.

372

: 00:16:50

It hurts people.

373

: 00:16:51

It's easy for career coaches

to tell you to do it.

374

: 00:16:53

And it's so counterproductive

and outdated.

375

: 00:16:56

When we sense sales pitches coming our

way, our guards go up, but success in the

376

: 00:17:00

modern job search means bringing strangers

guards down systematically over time.

377

: 00:17:04

Hey stranger, you don't know me,

but here's 10 reasons why I'm

378

: 00:17:07

awesome is not a great way to reach

out to someone who didn't ask for

379

: 00:17:10

that email in the first place.

380

: 00:17:12

There's a great body of

research on this topic.

381

: 00:17:14

It's called switching from

social norms to market norms.

382

: 00:17:17

Where if you offer, if you ask a

stranger to help you move a couch out

383

: 00:17:21

of a moving van, this is an experiment

by Dan O'Reilly that he talks through

384

: 00:17:24

and, and predictably irrational.

385

: 00:17:26

You are just as likely to get a stranger's

help if you offer 0 than if you offer 50.

386

: 00:17:31

But if you offer 5,

you're far less likely.

387

: 00:17:34

Then either of the other two

scenarios and he calls the switching

388

: 00:17:36

from social norms to market norms.

389

: 00:17:38

When you ask for a favor, you are

successful a fraction of the time.

390

: 00:17:42

Uh, as soon as you offer compensation,

it's not a good deed plus 5.

391

: 00:17:46

That's not what motivates

someone to do it.

392

: 00:17:47

The good deed goes out the window and

it's purely an hourly wage calculation.

393

: 00:17:51

The people who help you find jobs are not

going to get promoted for helping you.

394

: 00:17:55

The stock price isn't going to

shoot up the day that you start.

395

: 00:17:57

The reason they're helping you is

out of the goodness of their heart.

396

: 00:18:00

And some people are wired that way.

397

: 00:18:01

We just need to find those people.

398

: 00:18:03

It is so much easier to ask a stranger for

the gift of their time and knowledge in

399

: 00:18:06

an outreach email than to sell yourself.

400

: 00:18:08

So not only is the email easier to

write, it's more successful and it

401

: 00:18:12

attracts the right kind of Collaborator.

402

: 00:18:15

Uh, so that's really the first step.

403

: 00:18:18

Forget, sell yourself,

forget you ever heard it.

404

: 00:18:20

I wish that would die a fiery

death, but people keep repeating

405

: 00:18:23

it, but learn to ask for favors

and again, it's a learnable skill.

406

: 00:18:26

You've just never been

taught how to do it.

407

: 00:18:27

Avery Smith: Very, very interesting.

408

: 00:18:29

Um, I want to sit here for a, for a second

here because I almost want to push back

409

: 00:18:33

a little bit because there are some.

410

: 00:18:35

I think many companies have like an

employee referral program, right?

411

: 00:18:38

Where, where if you help

place an employee, um, you

412

: 00:18:41

might make like 500 bucks.

413

: 00:18:43

I mean, that is somewhat

of an incentive, correct?

414

: 00:18:45

Don't you think?

415

: 00:18:45

Steve Dalton: Uh, it is, again,

it's another sort of dated type of

416

: 00:18:49

infrastructure because I think when

people are trying to game that system as

417

: 00:18:53

an employee, you're trying to minimize

your investment in a, uh, a job seeker.

418

: 00:18:57

So job seeker reaches out.

419

: 00:18:58

The person says, I don't have

time to talk, but here, use this

420

: 00:19:01

link to apply to your job online.

421

: 00:19:03

Uh, because everybody kind of doesn't

understand how powerful referrals are.

422

: 00:19:06

They think that's a referral, and it is,

but the problem is the word referral.

423

: 00:19:10

The referral includes things like that,

where there's no relationship form.

424

: 00:19:14

Uh, it's, I don't have time to talk.

425

: 00:19:15

Apply through this link, but I

call that an online referral.

426

: 00:19:18

Online referrals are points of parity.

427

: 00:19:20

They're easy to get, so

you get what you pay for.

428

: 00:19:22

Contrast those.

429

: 00:19:23

You have other people who will

complain that referrals are, are,

430

: 00:19:25

they just, uh, they're nepotistic.

431

: 00:19:27

They help the rich get richer.

432

: 00:19:29

Uh, and I, I agree it, some

referrals are like that.

433

: 00:19:31

You, your, your dad goes to the

same country club as the CEO.

434

: 00:19:35

That's also called a referral, but

a very different kind of referral

435

: 00:19:38

than just put my name down on your

application or apply through this link.

436

: 00:19:41

I call those birthright referrals.

437

: 00:19:43

Yeah, there are no skill on your own.

438

: 00:19:45

Like you just were born to the

right family at the right time.

439

: 00:19:47

So congratulations.

440

: 00:19:49

Uh, and some people have these,

they'd be fools not to use them.

441

: 00:19:51

But most of us don't have those.

442

: 00:19:54

So what is our option that I

call those earned referrals?

443

: 00:19:57

Do you have the ability to take a stranger

at an organization you'd like to work

444

: 00:20:00

for and turn them into an advocate?

445

: 00:20:02

That is a real skill that will be

useful in any job at any company.

446

: 00:20:05

So you're actually demonstrating

in the way that you approach

447

: 00:20:08

that you have valuable skills

that the company will will value.

448

: 00:20:11

But ultimately, like, don't equate

online referrals with earned referrals.

449

: 00:20:15

Earned referrals provide

lasting benefit and knowledge.

450

: 00:20:18

Online referrals provide about what

you'd get from not having an online

451

: 00:20:22

referral, which is basically nothing.

452

: 00:20:24

Avery Smith: All right, if you've

enjoyed this episode so far and you're

453

: 00:20:26

like, Yes, networking is the way.

454

: 00:20:28

I want to be networking to

land my first day at a job.

455

: 00:20:31

Then you're going to absolutely

love these two things that I've

456

: 00:20:34

built from absolute scratch.

457

: 00:20:35

They pair really well together and

this is like basically a cheat code.

458

: 00:20:38

To actually doing what we've been

talking about in this episode.

459

: 00:20:41

The first one is premium data jobs.

460

: 00:20:43

com.

461

: 00:20:43

This is my premium data job board.

462

: 00:20:46

It costs money.

463

: 00:20:47

It's not free, but it's going to save

you so many hours a week in a month.

464

: 00:20:50

It's totally worth it.

465

: 00:20:51

So it's just a normal job board,

but the difference is here that

466

: 00:20:54

every job that you look at here will

have a recruiter, a hiring manager.

467

: 00:20:59

An individual contributor

that you can reach out to.

468

: 00:21:02

So like, for instance, this

data analyst job is pretty cool.

469

: 00:21:05

If you're like a physical therapist,

like this would be really relevant

470

: 00:21:07

to you because it's a data analyst

at a physical therapy company.

471

: 00:21:10

Once again, just kind of looks like

a normal job description, right?

472

: 00:21:14

But when you click apply now, it's

going to take you to a LinkedIn post

473

: 00:21:18

where like the hiring manager, the

recruiter, or someone has posted this job.

474

: 00:21:22

Um, and we tried to do it really quickly.

475

: 00:21:24

So you can see that this was posted.

476

: 00:21:25

This was posted three days ago and we,

this was posted online three days ago.

477

: 00:21:30

So we were one of the first people

to help you apply to this job.

478

: 00:21:32

And what the cool part here, here

is you can actually open up this

479

: 00:21:35

person's LinkedIn profile and

actually talk to this person, right?

480

: 00:21:38

We can send a message to them.

481

: 00:21:40

In this episode, we've talked about

who to reach out to and what to say.

482

: 00:21:43

And so when you're just getting

started, what I highly recommend

483

: 00:21:45

is checking out DataFerry.

484

: 00:21:46

DataFerry, like, like a

little magical nymph, right?

485

: 00:21:48

Has this really cool tool.

486

: 00:21:50

I built DataFerry, uh, as well.

487

: 00:21:52

You can go to the cold message composer

down here, and this is actually using

488

: 00:21:55

AI and R framework in the background.

489

: 00:21:58

So it's not just chat GPT.

490

: 00:21:59

It's Chachapiti plus all of our knowledge

and all of my frameworks on sending

491

: 00:22:02

cold messages and select, you know, who

you're actually, you know, sending it to.

492

: 00:22:06

So in this case, a hiring manager, and

that's going to ask you some questions.

493

: 00:22:08

It's going to ask you to put in

their, their LinkedIn profile so

494

: 00:22:11

that we can get to know this person.

495

: 00:22:12

And it's giving the AI bot a

lot of context on who you're

496

: 00:22:16

messaging and why you're messaging.

497

: 00:22:17

And the combination of premium

data jobs and DataFerry is honestly

498

: 00:22:21

really deadly in your job search.

499

: 00:22:23

So you can actually get started

for free with both of these.

500

: 00:22:26

The first one is going

to be premium data jobs.

501

: 00:22:28

com.

502

: 00:22:29

The second one is going to be data ferry.

503

: 00:22:31

io.

504

: 00:22:31

Go check these out and at least

get a feel for how you could

505

: 00:22:34

possibly do this on your own.

506

: 00:22:36

Let's get back into the episode.

507

: 00:22:37

I like that what you said earlier

that some people are going to be

508

: 00:22:41

intrinsically motivated and we want

to just kind of find those people.

509

: 00:22:44

Um, I've definitely seen that in, in my

students and when I was at Exxon mobile.

510

: 00:22:48

And, uh, I was posting a lot of LinkedIn.

511

: 00:22:50

I was growing a ton on

LinkedIn at the time.

512

: 00:22:52

People would reach out all the time.

513

: 00:22:54

Hey, can you help me

get a job at ExxonMobil?

514

: 00:22:56

And some of those people

were from like India.

515

: 00:22:58

And I was like, sorry, I don't have

a whole lot in common with you.

516

: 00:23:01

I don't even know what it's like.

517

: 00:23:02

I haven't been to India.

518

: 00:23:03

I haven't, I haven't gone from India to

the U S to work at an American company.

519

: 00:23:07

Like, I don't really know

a whole lot about that.

520

: 00:23:09

And.

521

: 00:23:10

For those people, I was one, to

be honest, less motivated to help

522

: 00:23:14

because I couldn't relate as much.

523

: 00:23:15

But if someone at the time when

I was at ExxonMobil, Exxon is

524

: 00:23:19

really about like career hires.

525

: 00:23:21

So they're very, they hired to retire.

526

: 00:23:24

They're like what they say, right?

527

: 00:23:25

So they're very like, they're

in the college game quite a bit.

528

: 00:23:27

And they don't recruit out of the

University of Utah, which is where I went.

529

: 00:23:30

And because of that, there's only,

I was one of three people to, from

530

: 00:23:34

my school to work at Exxon Mobile.

531

: 00:23:36

And I was, I was really proud of that.

532

: 00:23:37

Right.

533

: 00:23:37

Cause that's like, there's

not a whole lot of us there.

534

: 00:23:39

So if someone from the University of

Utah reached out to me, it was like,

535

: 00:23:42

Hey, how do I work for Exxon Mobile?

536

: 00:23:44

I was much more intrinsically

motivated to help them because

537

: 00:23:46

I was like, yeah, go you.

538

: 00:23:48

It's like, I want a fourth person here.

539

: 00:23:50

Let's, I know the exact

journey that I did.

540

: 00:23:52

That'll be really relatable to you.

541

: 00:23:54

So like, here's what I did.

542

: 00:23:55

Let's get on a phone call.

543

: 00:23:56

Go talk to this person.

544

: 00:23:57

Go talk to that person.

545

: 00:23:58

And like, It's the same ask, but to

be perfectly frank, I was so much more

546

: 00:24:02

motivated to help another, another ute.

547

: 00:24:04

I mean, it didn't have to be, you

know, it could have been anything.

548

: 00:24:07

It could have been someone that

goes to the same church as me.

549

: 00:24:08

It could have been, you know, someone

that likes soccer, like whatever.

550

: 00:24:11

They related to me in some way.

551

: 00:24:12

All of a sudden I was like,

Oh, I see myself in you.

552

: 00:24:15

And I, I, my experience is kind

of what your experience might be.

553

: 00:24:18

So I have a lot more to offer and

I'm also more motivated to help.

554

: 00:24:21

Does that, does that make sense?

555

: 00:24:22

Is that kind of what you're saying?

556

: 00:24:23

Steve Dalton: Yes and no.

557

: 00:24:24

Commonality is great when you

have it, but a lot of us don't

558

: 00:24:27

have commonality with people.

559

: 00:24:29

Like if we're targeting a small

organization, they don't, a

560

: 00:24:31

person can go to the same school.

561

: 00:24:32

I don't have anything in common with them.

562

: 00:24:33

What, what then do I just have to resign

myself to never being employed again?

563

: 00:24:37

I would say the better way to write

that outreach email is not can you

564

: 00:24:39

help me get a job at ExxonMobil?

565

: 00:24:41

It's hey, do you have some time

to talk about your experience

566

: 00:24:43

in data science at ExxonMobil?

567

: 00:24:45

Your, your insights be greatly appreciated

because I'm trying to learn more about Uh,

568

: 00:24:49

data science in the oil and gas sector.

569

: 00:24:51

Okay, now I'm not asking you for a job.

570

: 00:24:53

I'm asking you how you got so

smart at your job, which is a

571

: 00:24:55

much more fun conversation to

take up, to take someone up on.

572

: 00:24:58

I mean, obviously, you'd rather that

person have gone to your same school so

573

: 00:25:01

you can talk about the old times and life

on campus, but barring that, I think,

574

: 00:25:06

and I can't blame the students that

were reaching out to you to ask, ask you

575

: 00:25:10

point blank and, and starting from zero,

like, can you help me get a job at your

576

: 00:25:13

organization despite not knowing me?

577

: 00:25:15

Because that, that

involves risk on your part.

578

: 00:25:17

That involves you spending social capital

on someone that you can't vouch for.

579

: 00:25:21

Scary.

580

: 00:25:22

Which is dangerous.

581

: 00:25:23

So, the better way, I can't fault people

for doing that because again, they've

582

: 00:25:27

never been taught how to do this.

583

: 00:25:28

And that is on higher ed.

584

: 00:25:29

That is not on job seekers

making a, a perfectly reasonable

585

: 00:25:33

assumption that I should.

586

: 00:25:34

Be direct.

587

: 00:25:35

I should tell people what I want.

588

: 00:25:36

I should ask for the

assistance I'm seeking.

589

: 00:25:38

Uh, but it's not how you get a stranger

to, to lower their guard enough to,

590

: 00:25:43

to invest 30 minutes in you and see if

you're someone they want to advocate for.

591

: 00:25:47

Avery Smith: That makes

a lot of, a lot of sense.

592

: 00:25:49

It reminded me, we, we had a, a,

another career coach on, Daniel Botero.

593

: 00:25:53

And one time he told me, um, if you

ask for a referral, you get advice.

594

: 00:25:58

If you ask for advice, you get a referral.

595

: 00:26:00

Steve Dalton: I, I had a salesperson

give me their variant of this, which

596

: 00:26:04

is if you ask for time, you get money.

597

: 00:26:06

If you ask for money, you get time.

598

: 00:26:07

Avery Smith: Yeah.

599

: 00:26:07

Steve Dalton: Um, so, uh, a, a,

a development person actually

600

: 00:26:11

trying to raise funds for,

for universities and stuff.

601

: 00:26:14

Uh, same thing's true.

602

: 00:26:16

I, I, it's a weird quirk

of American culture.

603

: 00:26:18

We're known the world around for being

very blunt and direct, but we have a

604

: 00:26:21

couple of weird exceptions to that.

605

: 00:26:23

Negative feedback.

606

: 00:26:24

We don't we're not very direct.

607

: 00:26:26

We like the sandwich.

608

: 00:26:26

Here's something nice.

609

: 00:26:27

Here's why we're having the meeting.

610

: 00:26:29

But here's another nice thing.

611

: 00:26:30

And we're really indirect about job

searching and coming from outside the U.

612

: 00:26:34

S.

613

: 00:26:34

I don't know how you're supposed

to know that about the U.

614

: 00:26:36

S.

615

: 00:26:36

That we have these weird blind spots or

exceptions to always being pretty direct,

616

: 00:26:41

which The more heterogeneous your society

is, the more you have to like put things

617

: 00:26:45

in words because you can't rely on a

pause or eye contact to convey meaning.

618

: 00:26:50

Same way.

619

: 00:26:50

People just, people need to be taught

these things and nobody's teaching

620

: 00:26:54

it and that really frustrates me.

621

: 00:26:56

Which is why I wrote, I don't actually

love writing, but I hated the idea

622

: 00:27:00

that only students that were wealthy

enough to afford business school

623

: 00:27:03

and then happened to choose Duke

could access this methodology that I

624

: 00:27:07

developed to help people find jobs.

625

: 00:27:09

So I wanted to put it in the hands

of anyone at the library card.

626

: 00:27:12

Avery Smith: Well, we

appreciate you doing that.

627

: 00:27:13

We appreciate both those books

and we appreciate you being here,

628

: 00:27:16

giving us a glimpse into it.

629

: 00:27:18

When people are starting to write

these like messages and cold messages,

630

: 00:27:21

do you think it's okay for them

to utilize things like ChatGPT?

631

: 00:27:25

Steve Dalton: I would if

ChatGPT were good at it.

632

: 00:27:27

But ChatGPT is often

garbage in, garbage out.

633

: 00:27:30

People think to use ChatGPT on

things it's not great at in the

634

: 00:27:33

job search, like cover letters.

635

: 00:27:35

Uh, outreach messages on the problem.

636

: 00:27:38

There is cover letters.

637

: 00:27:39

It learns on what's on the Internet.

638

: 00:27:41

That's how chat GPT improves

outreach messages that learns

639

: 00:27:45

from what's on the Internet.

640

: 00:27:45

And those messages on the Internet

are very market norm based.

641

: 00:27:49

Like here's all the value that I

would bring to your organization.

642

: 00:27:53

Here's why you should take

me seriously as a candidate.

643

: 00:27:55

So it's really not great at the things

that you think it should be good at.

644

: 00:28:00

It's great at other things in the

job search, figuring out what you

645

: 00:28:02

wanna do with your life, for example.

646

: 00:28:04

It's surprisingly good at that.

647

: 00:28:05

It's great at helping you understand

what projects you would do if you

648

: 00:28:08

actually were hired to do a company.

649

: 00:28:10

It's great for helping you brainstorm

companies that you'd like to work

650

: 00:28:12

for in the first place, but it

is not great at writing messages.

651

: 00:28:16

Uh, so the, I teach something

called the six point email.

652

: 00:28:19

In the two hour job search.

653

: 00:28:20

It's under.

654

: 00:28:22

75 words long.

655

: 00:28:23

The body of the email

is about 46 words long.

656

: 00:28:25

This is not a long email

and it's pretty formulaic.

657

: 00:28:28

It's it's basically a fill in the blank

exercise, but it's been evolved over tens

658

: 00:28:32

of thousands of iterations of practice

and and modification and a B testing.

659

: 00:28:37

If you will, that is more

effective at getting in touch

660

: 00:28:40

with that target audience who is

Intrinsically motivated to be helpful.

661

: 00:28:44

Chat GPT is not thinking in terms

of who is my target audience?

662

: 00:28:47

Oh, it's people who are

intrinsically helpful.

663

: 00:28:49

What's the best way to

get in touch with them?

664

: 00:28:50

Oh, it's to ask them for the gift

of their time and knowledge using

665

: 00:28:53

social norms rather than market norms.

666

: 00:28:55

So it doesn't have the whole

philosophy of the two hour job search.

667

: 00:28:58

That's why the two hour job search has

a lot of philosophy and science in it to

668

: 00:29:02

demonstrate here's why this makes sense.

669

: 00:29:05

Here's the, the research backing this

approach as being a more fruitful.

670

: 00:29:09

line of investigation than sell

yourself and spamming lots of people.

671

: 00:29:13

Avery Smith: I think that's true for

everything you could almost do in

672

: 00:29:16

ChatGPT is like, it's okay at whatever

task you give it, um, but it's probably

673

: 00:29:22

never going to be a proven framework.

674

: 00:29:24

And maybe when you combine it with

like a proven framework and, and some

675

: 00:29:28

of the creativity to, to kind of get

you started like a warm start, I think

676

: 00:29:32

that, that can be, that can be powerful.

677

: 00:29:34

But obviously like the, the most

successful cold messages probably

678

: 00:29:38

are plastered all over the internet.

679

: 00:29:40

They happened in text messages

and emails and LinkedIn messages.

680

: 00:29:44

So chat GPT won't have access to, to that.

681

: 00:29:46

What other, what other like tech

can you use in your job search?

682

: 00:29:49

There's.

683

: 00:29:50

There's a, I don't know if you've seen,

um, I just have one of my students

684

: 00:29:53

in the accelerator ask about it.

685

: 00:29:54

I can't remember the product name.

686

: 00:29:55

We don't give them the plug, but

like some, some sort of like AI tool

687

: 00:29:59

that like goes out there and applies

to like millions of jobs for you.

688

: 00:30:02

What, what, what like technology

can job seekers use that you

689

: 00:30:05

think might have some use?

690

: 00:30:07

Steve Dalton: Honestly, I think

it's, I would put it this way.

691

: 00:30:09

Online job postings used to

work back in the era of monster.

692

: 00:30:13

com circa 2000.

693

: 00:30:15

Online job postings were great.

694

: 00:30:16

And then they started becoming less great

as more people found out about them.

695

: 00:30:19

And then AI came on the scene and

companies were using AI to weed out

696

: 00:30:22

candidates and candidates started

using AI to apply to more jobs.

697

: 00:30:26

So with more applications and more AI

weeding you out using rules that you

698

: 00:30:30

can't understand from the outside,

I would argue that the success rate

699

: 00:30:33

on online job postings has gotten

worse over the last few years.

700

: 00:30:36

There's just more applications out there.

701

: 00:30:38

So by definition, like, okay, if,

so if online job postings continue

702

: 00:30:43

to get worse, and then we have ghost

jobs on top of that, an estimate

703

: 00:30:46

saying 20 percent of those jobs

have no intention of being filled.

704

: 00:30:49

A lot of those postings have already

have someone earmarked for that position.

705

: 00:30:52

So like if online job postings get

worse, the alternatives have to

706

: 00:30:56

become more attractive in comparison,

even if they don't get better.

707

: 00:30:59

And that's how I feel about networking.

708

: 00:31:01

Like, yes, you can find bots

that will apply to many jobs

709

: 00:31:04

that you may or may not want.

710

: 00:31:06

But wouldn't you prefer a job that

you want to a job that you don't want?

711

: 00:31:09

And wouldn't you prefer to be

smarter tomorrow than you are today?

712

: 00:31:12

All, like, mass applying just

doesn't pass the smell test.

713

: 00:31:16

If ever, if it works,

everybody would do it.

714

: 00:31:18

And if everybody did it,

it would stop working.

715

: 00:31:20

So it's not a protectable advantage.

716

: 00:31:22

What is?

717

: 00:31:22

Important right now is

showing that you have that.

718

: 00:31:25

It feels like we're

going back to the future.

719

: 00:31:27

Like networking was never this

important for our parents because they

720

: 00:31:31

had some geographical protections.

721

: 00:31:32

They would look up for jobs in

the one ads of the newspaper

722

: 00:31:35

back when we had newspapers.

723

: 00:31:37

So networking is more important

now than it's ever been before.

724

: 00:31:39

It's I call it a universal round one.

725

: 00:31:42

You have an interview with

every company you've ever

726

: 00:31:44

wanted, and they all have this.

727

: 00:31:46

They've all agreed to standardize

the round one interview and

728

: 00:31:48

the round one interview.

729

: 00:31:50

There's no time limit

and it's already started.

730

: 00:31:51

So you can start whenever you want.

731

: 00:31:53

The round one interview is this,

find somebody in your job of choice

732

: 00:31:56

at that company and have them

recommend you to another person

733

: 00:31:59

in that function at that company.

734

: 00:32:01

That's it.

735

: 00:32:02

If you do that, you've got a, you've

got a first round interview the

736

: 00:32:04

next time they have an opening.

737

: 00:32:06

And I think people are just like,

Oh, that sounds so hard, but is it?

738

: 00:32:09

I mean, a, you haven't learned it.

739

: 00:32:11

So assuming you've learned it.

740

: 00:32:12

Is reaching out to strangers and asking

them how they got so good at their job

741

: 00:32:15

harder than the soul crushing work of

applying to online job postings over

742

: 00:32:20

and over or constantly trolling to see

if there are new postings that have

743

: 00:32:24

gone up in the last 24 hours because

you read somewhere at one time that

744

: 00:32:28

applying in the first hour makes you

a more attractive candidate for some

745

: 00:32:31

reason, is that really who companies want?

746

: 00:32:33

Are the person who's living to see that

the latest job posting in the last hour?

747

: 00:32:37

There's, there's lots

of problems with it, so.

748

: 00:32:39

In terms of technology that

I recommend, I love AI.

749

: 00:32:43

I think it has its place in the

job search, but you have to be

750

: 00:32:46

judicious with where you use it.

751

: 00:32:47

I really like Crunchbase for

helping you brainstorm companies.

752

: 00:32:50

I love Hunter.

753

: 00:32:50

io for helping you identify email contact

information for people at companies.

754

: 00:32:55

But I really like the technology

that I think is most important is.

755

: 00:32:59

Technology in the knowledge sense.

756

: 00:33:00

It's learning how to reach out to

strangers and ask for the gift of

757

: 00:33:04

their time and knowledge effectively.

758

: 00:33:06

Avery Smith: I read a tweet recently

that said in the future, we might

759

: 00:33:09

pay for AI less experiences.

760

: 00:33:13

Like we might, we might like pay a

premium for like, no, this has no AI.

761

: 00:33:17

This is just human to human interaction.

762

: 00:33:19

So I think that that definitely you, you

can really stand out if you're able to.

763

: 00:33:23

To make that human connection.

764

: 00:33:25

I want to go to, to you talking about

like, when you do these cold applications,

765

: 00:33:30

it's a little bit like, like a black box.

766

: 00:33:32

Uh, you don't really know a hundred

percent why if you ever get an

767

: 00:33:36

interview, why, and when you get

rejected, you certainly don't

768

: 00:33:39

really know why you get rejected.

769

: 00:33:40

That's, that's really frustrating because

if you're putting hundreds of applications

770

: 00:33:44

out there and you're spending hundreds

of hours, like into the system where

771

: 00:33:48

the game is unknown, there's no rules

to the game, uh, or, or, or maybe there

772

: 00:33:52

are, but, but you can't know them.

773

: 00:33:54

That's not really fun.

774

: 00:33:55

Um, and that kind of leads you to kind of.

775

: 00:33:57

Kind of your, your resume

role, I guess it's, it's Ed's.

776

: 00:34:00

I can't remember who Ed is, but

this is Ed's three hour resume role.

777

: 00:34:03

You want to explain what that is?

778

: 00:34:04

Steve Dalton: Sure.

779

: 00:34:04

Ed was my supervisor, uh, my last

supervisor when I worked at the career

780

: 00:34:08

center at the business school at Duke.

781

: 00:34:10

And he had this great

phrase that I loved it.

782

: 00:34:12

He said to whenever we'd have a new

cohort of students, he said, assume that

783

: 00:34:16

your job search will take you 100 hours.

784

: 00:34:18

I want you spending no more than

three of them on your resume.

785

: 00:34:21

And I just, I love how succinct

and how proportional that makes

786

: 00:34:26

people see the, the role of the

resume and in a greater job search.

787

: 00:34:29

Again, it's free.

788

: 00:34:30

It is free for every career coach out

there to say something like you need

789

: 00:34:33

to customize your resume for online

app, any, every online application.

790

: 00:34:37

I see that regularly.

791

: 00:34:38

I, what I don't see is any data that

supports that that actually works.

792

: 00:34:42

So the upside is completely unknown and

uncertain, but the downside is certain.

793

: 00:34:46

That takes you time and effort to

customize every resume for every

794

: 00:34:50

online application, even when you

know the online application response

795

: 00:34:53

rate is pretty close to zero.

796

: 00:34:54

So to me, that is malpractice.

797

: 00:34:56

Uh, if there's no proof that it works,

but the costs are certain, like, I

798

: 00:35:00

don't know how you can sleep at night

telling people that they should do that.

799

: 00:35:03

Ed's three hour rule just

provides some context.

800

: 00:35:06

That 97 hours, a lot of people will brag

about how long they spent on the resume.

801

: 00:35:10

The problem is like nobody agrees

on what a perfect resume looks like.

802

: 00:35:13

What we do agree on is what a

good enough resume looks like.

803

: 00:35:16

The 80 percent resume.

804

: 00:35:17

We kind of agree on that.

805

: 00:35:18

It's error free that the

formatting all lines up.

806

: 00:35:20

It's easy to read.

807

: 00:35:21

There's some white space.

808

: 00:35:22

I understand clearly what

the flow of your career was.

809

: 00:35:25

But once you get to a point where feedback

is subjective rather than objective,

810

: 00:35:29

meaning it's a matter of opinion, not

a matter of fact, like that margin is

811

: 00:35:33

clearly misaligned versus I think you

should move up your action verbs here.

812

: 00:35:37

Like then we're getting to a

point where you are exerting

813

: 00:35:40

effort with no certain upside.

814

: 00:35:42

And that's not a good value proposition.

815

: 00:35:44

I just, it breaks my heart when I hear

people work with professional resume

816

: 00:35:48

reviewer, resume coaches, and they get

their resume, what they think is perfect.

817

: 00:35:52

And they think that until they show

it to literally anyone else, because

818

: 00:35:55

everyone's an expert on resumes.

819

: 00:35:57

And then they feel like, Oh, did

I just waste a bunch of money?

820

: 00:36:00

It's really heartbreaking to hear that.

821

: 00:36:02

My recommendation is do

your best with your resume.

822

: 00:36:04

Don't spend more than three hours on it.

823

: 00:36:06

Um, I talk about this in my

second book, the job closer.

824

: 00:36:08

How do you get it done in three hours?

825

: 00:36:09

There it's pretty easy.

826

: 00:36:11

Actually, most people, when they

stress out about their resumes,

827

: 00:36:14

they're not They're not stressed

about what actually matters.

828

: 00:36:17

What I mean by that, there was a study

by the ladders done a number of years

829

: 00:36:20

ago that showed that 80 percent of, uh,

human resume reviewers attention was on

830

: 00:36:24

the following items, the companies you

worked for your job titles, your dates

831

: 00:36:28

of employment, and your school attended.

832

: 00:36:30

What all those things have in

common, they are the things that

833

: 00:36:32

you can't change on your resume.

834

: 00:36:34

They are objective info.

835

: 00:36:35

What we stress about is not the

objective info, it's the bullet points.

836

: 00:36:38

And the bullet points in

total, we're getting 1.

837

: 00:36:41

2 seconds, compared to 4.

838

: 00:36:42

8 seconds for all of the objective data.

839

: 00:36:44

So nobody's reading it.

840

: 00:36:45

And if they are reading it, they

already like you, which means you've

841

: 00:36:48

done some networking or have a

referral of some sort, which is good.

842

: 00:36:51

Uh, so because there's just no

positive return on investment of

843

: 00:36:55

hours and hours of effort, I recommend

doing your best on your resume.

844

: 00:36:59

I frankly recommend brainstorming

your interview stories first and then

845

: 00:37:03

using those to populate your resume.

846

: 00:37:04

Chat GPT is great at condensing your

interview stories down to bullet points.

847

: 00:37:08

Um, that's one of its strengths.

848

: 00:37:09

Uh, so, and that way you don't have to

do double work when it's time to prep

849

: 00:37:12

for interviews, but that's not how most

people are taught to do a job search.

850

: 00:37:16

It's always resume first, uh, cover letter

first, then we'll practice interview

851

: 00:37:19

skills once you start getting interviews.

852

: 00:37:21

But I think the three hour rule is just a

nice way to remind yourself, do your best.

853

: 00:37:26

What they're, what they care about

are the things that you can't change,

854

: 00:37:28

not the things that you can change.

855

: 00:37:30

So just do your best on the

things you can change, and you'll

856

: 00:37:32

get better at it over time.

857

: 00:37:33

Avery Smith: That's really cool.

858

: 00:37:34

Um, yeah, really neat that like Cause,

cause you're right, if you give your

859

: 00:37:38

resume to literally any people, like

someone's going to nitpick something

860

: 00:37:42

and say, you should change it.

861

: 00:37:44

So there obviously is no perfect resume

and it's maybe more, maybe at the

862

: 00:37:47

beginning, there's a lot of science to it.

863

: 00:37:49

Like you need to try

to get it past the ATS.

864

: 00:37:51

You need it to make sense.

865

: 00:37:52

You don't want to have misspellings, but

like you said, maybe once it hits maybe

866

: 00:37:55

like that 70, 80 percent mark, it becomes

more of an art, uh, than the science.

867

: 00:38:01

Steve Dalton: It's

attempting diversion, though.

868

: 00:38:03

It's the devil you know.

869

: 00:38:04

And I think the same goes

for online job postings.

870

: 00:38:06

There's some comfort in knowing that

it's going to ask you to upload your

871

: 00:38:09

resume and then type in all the stuff

that wasn't in your resume anyway.

872

: 00:38:13

Like, you know that you know the drill.

873

: 00:38:15

Asking strangers for the gift of their

time, you don't know that drill and it's

874

: 00:38:18

scary, but it's Just a more human and

humane way to go about job searching that

875

: 00:38:22

makes you a stronger candidate over time.

876

: 00:38:24

But that time has to come from somewhere.

877

: 00:38:26

So you can't afford to spend 50 hours

on a resume, even if it were perfect

878

: 00:38:30

and everyone agreed it was perfect.

879

: 00:38:31

You still need people to lay eyes on it.

880

: 00:38:33

And online job postings don't do that.

881

: 00:38:35

That gets a computer to lay eyes on it.

882

: 00:38:37

And you don't know like how

flawed the computer algorithm is.

883

: 00:38:40

A lot of that.

884

: 00:38:41

Data on early AI computer algorithms

from ATS systems show they were

885

: 00:38:45

racist or sexist or like biased in

ways that we couldn't even predict.

886

: 00:38:49

So like, yeah, don't wear

yourself out on your resume.

887

: 00:38:52

There are bigger fish to fry, but

it does involve moving away from the

888

: 00:38:55

devil, you know, to one you don't know.

889

: 00:38:57

Avery Smith: Okay, Steve, well, you've

given us a complete masterclass of how

890

: 00:39:00

we can network as aspiring data analysts.

891

: 00:39:02

What is your last bit of advice

that you'd give to, you know, anyone

892

: 00:39:05

who's in the job search right now?

893

: 00:39:07

Steve Dalton: Gosh, just the best piece

of advice I ever got from my favorite

894

: 00:39:10

boss in strategy consulting was Steve,

at some point in your career, you'll

895

: 00:39:14

be asked to build a rocket ship.

896

: 00:39:15

You won't know how to build a rocket

ship, but step one is always the same.

897

: 00:39:18

Find someone who's built a rocket ship

before and ask them how they did it.

898

: 00:39:21

If you're a job seeker, don't put

this on yourself to figure out.

899

: 00:39:24

I've done thousands of job searches.

900

: 00:39:26

You've done one, two, five, maybe even

10, but I'm in a much better position

901

: 00:39:30

to curate a set of instructions

from all of the intellectual capital

902

: 00:39:34

that's out there than you are.

903

: 00:39:35

Why should you be expected to do that?

904

: 00:39:37

Isn't that my job?

905

: 00:39:38

Isn't that the job of

people in my position?

906

: 00:39:40

So don't blame yourself for not knowing

how to do something you've never been

907

: 00:39:44

trained to do, but do seek out a set

of instructions that helps you get it

908

: 00:39:48

done more effectively and, and humanely.

909

: 00:39:51

Uh, that, that's the, the single

best piece of advice I could give.

910

: 00:39:54

Avery Smith: I love it.

911

: 00:39:55

Steve, thanks so much for joining us.

912

: 00:39:56

We'll have all of Steve's links in the

show notes down below, including both of

913

: 00:40:00

his books, uh, which are very awesome.

914

: 00:40:02

If you couldn't already tell by this,

this episode, uh, as well as some

915

: 00:40:05

of his LinkedIn and other resources.

916

: 00:40:07

Yes.

917

: 00:40:07

Steve, thanks so much for being with us.

918

: 00:40:09

Steve Dalton: My pleasure.